Drug Test for food stamps bill gets amended

Kazutam, I agree completely. My sister is the ultimate example of the stereotypes about this. If anyone tells you the image of a person getting fat off our taxpayer money sitting on their can and partying away is a myth, my sister is living proof that it's not.

The problem is, if these people do get cut, are the caseworkers going to get them on disability to make up for it like they did last time there were big changes? If so, that's not actually going to help us any. My sister is getting a helluva lot more money from disability than she did from the old welfare program so in the end it is costing us more money.

The hard drugs are out of your system in a matter of days, sometimes hours. The only drug that remains in your system for a long period of time is marijuana. I don't give a flying fig about people on welfare smoking pot just like I don't care if they drink or smoke cigarettes.

Agreed.

I don't agree with this drug testing. The hard drugs are out of your system in a matter of days, sometimes hours.

Not to mention that it's simple scapegoating and kicking the poor when they're down. It's just plain meanness and self-righteous crap. It's just vindictive, bad people being jerks.

Those follicle tests are very expense. Way more expense than a pee or saliva test and do require lab work. But it is a good idea for actually catching the hard drug users.

Personally I have nothing against weed and also find it a shame that the least harmful "illegal" substance stays in your system the longest.

Maybe thats why it stays in your system so long...because your body really finds no need to flush it out quickly. It feels no threat. Just an idea lol

Lol. No its because it stays in your fat cells. :D

Not to mention that it's simple scapegoating and kicking the poor when they're down. It's just plain meanness and self-righteous crap. It's just vindictive, bad people being jerks.

Agreed again.

I don't know how much a drug test costs but by the time we pay for the drug tests and the enforcement of failed drug tests, the supposed mission of saving money actually costs us just as much as they actual benefit money, or close.

This is just another mission of beating the little guy. Too bad there's no money in lobbying for poor people.

not over it-I agree, its not about the money. Its about humiliation.

It's @!$%#ing stupid and simply wrong. Just more government trying to get inside of and control the lives of Americans.

Maybe they should be worrying more about all those social service workers that are pushing through applications for food stamps and government aid for illegal immigrants without so much as the slightest attempt to validate the bogus identification most of them use to get a handout.

3.6

Not

I agree that it beats up the little guy and the loss due to dishonest users and grocers would exist no matter if there are drug tests or not. I personally am tired of the gov looking at my blood. The VA draws so much blood from me that my veins have receded!

It's such a mean spirited idea and the fact that this is the sort of grandstanding gaining traction right now is terrible.

I'm not of a mind to blame the people who are piling on right now. People are scared and it's easy to get your head turned around while you are worried about your own situation.

What the world could use right now is a little more empathy. I'll start by trying to understand people who blame the victims of our economy during a deep recession.

Kaz, yep you do know exactly what I'm talking about. Her one daughter didn't even know what a banana was at 5 yrs old! Whenever they would come over, we started making sure to have a giant fruit basket set out. Part of it too is that they don't have much food most of the time so when it is there they gulp down everything they can.

This is typical in my neighborhood where it is COMMONPLACE for the local liquor store to buy the "stamps' (actually a card) for 50% and supply booze (at a profit, no less.) Still, it does provide food sometimes. The REALLY incapable (mentally incompetent) recieve only foodstamps being unable to ply the fed bureacracy for min SSI instead.

My state has a 6-month max for food stamps, but relies on the counties to keep track of the time and my county (Democrat) refuses to keep track so a person here gets stamp-cards indefinitely. I just had two neighbors complain to me that they could not get cash for their stamps because nearly everyone in the neighborhood gets their own.

kaz

It means that it is tough to abuse the system?

There are people I have met personally while doing maintenance on their apartments who are getting almost $1000 a month in food stamps

I would bet a plate of two day old rice and beans that nobody, or almost nobody, is getting a thousand dollars a month in food stamps.

The typical family of four in California is getting around 200 dollars a month. That's around $12.50 per person per week (less than two dollars a day). You can't buy a lot of food with that, let alone drugs. For the amount of money we are willing to piss away on drug tests, we could provide better nutrition to the children in these families.

Across the board drug testing is wasteful.

According to Wikipedia, which is about as good as any other source these days:

Claims of fraud and abuse of the program have likewise proved to be unfounded. In 2005, 98% of food stamp benefits went to eligible households. According to the Government Accountability Office, at last count (2004), only 4.48% of food stamps benefits were found to be overpaid, down by more than a third from six years earlier.[citation needed] Two-thirds of all improper payments were found to be the fault of the caseworker, not the individual.

Maybe our time would be better spent trying to claw back investment bank bonuses that were paid out with government bailout funds?

Look up the ss disability payment per person in Ohio. Multiply that by six and you have my sister's current monthly check amount. Plus free healthcare and prescriptions, housing assistance, food stamps, extra bucks if she buys a car, vouchers if it needs repairs, plus the loads of free food and free clothes she gets from local charities. I have a really nice job and she makes more than I do! She worked a fast food restaurant for a few months back in h.s. and that's the extent of her "contributions".

We would have been better off keeping her on welfare - it didn't pay quite as well. At this point welfare reform wouldn't hurt her since they got her on disability. Not to mention that after so many years of sitting around doing drugs she really does have health problems now.

I'm amazed at the people here with close relatives on public assistance who are railing against the money they receive. Perhaps you would rather have them move in with you?

I'll bet that would make for some rather lively kitchen table discussions.

I'm still unconvinced that across the board drug testing for people receiving food stamps is a good idea.

The way marijuana stays in the system, simply sharing a joint with a friend could result in having dirty urine for weeks on end. Just because someone fails a drug test isn't proof that they spent the money on drugs. I'm generally NOT a marijuana advocate, but the testing sounds like a waste of time and money.

If I smoked pot and had a friend who was down on his luck and out of work for a while, but looking hard for wor, I'd be a real jerk if I didn't offer him a smoke on the weekend. People laying around the shack, waiting for the mail train to come back sounds like the exception rather than the rule. To the extent people are spending their food money on drugs, that sucks, but how much money are we supposed to spend policing the @!$%#s at the expense of those who need the assistance. Every drug test we administer on a weekly basis to a food stamps recipient is food that isn't winding up in someone's mouth.

And what do they do when somebody fails the drug test? Starve the offender's children?

If it's a solution that only saves us amounts of money that are roughly equivalent to numerical rounding errors, then the opportunity costs for the drug testing outweigh the merits of the drug testing.

Hard times are ahead for our fellow Americans. Adding insult to injury is the wrong priority.

I'm amazed at the people here with close relatives on public assistance who are railing against the money they receive. Perhaps you would rather have them move in with you?

I'll bet that would make for some rather lively kitchen table discussions.

Well yeah, at various points I've had to live with her, her hubby, and four kids at some point. You are absolutely right it makes for some interesting discussions. I'm known as the B of the family. They're all jealous of me, think I'm filthy rich, and don't understand at all why their life isn't like mine. Trust me....I'm not rich. I'm good, but not rich.

Having her oldest son, his girlfriend and their first kid living with and living off me for a while sucked even worse. They actually had the ignorance/arrogance to think they could run my house and dictate their rules to me lol. That made for some seriously interesting discussions.

No, I would not allow them to Ever move into my home again. Quite frankly they can get off their sorry buttz and do something for themselves or they can live under a bridge. It is their responsibility not mine. They make their own life just as I have. I'm not sure why the assumption that if I don't want to foot their bill, I should be responsible for providing them with a home and food? They're over the age of 18 and they're not my children so as far as I know there is no reason why I would be obligated in any way to carry them while they sit around getting wasted.

Hmm. A thread like this seems to attract people with first hand experience with deadbeats in their own families. I think it kind of skews perceptions of how prevalent the abuse is.

I don't doubt that there are deadbeats out there, what I do question is what percentage of the system they comprise. Even Barack Obama was on food stamps as a child. Did his mom make some bad choices? Maybe. But a lot of marriages don't work out and mothers need to leave with the kids and paying for food is a problem. Also worth noting is that she wound up finishing school and becoming a productive member of academia and Barack went on to become a fairly mediocre president and a successful author.

Ideally, that's what these programs do. They get people through rough patches and they keep the windows of opportunity open.

Gulliver's, There is the misperception that the big welfare reform was a success. I say misperception because it gives the impression we got a lot of people off of the gov dole. Not true. I don't know the numbers - and would be surprised if we could find them - of how many were moved over to social security like my sister.

I've seen other articles talking about how many abusers there really are and from what I've deduced no one has numbers they can reasonably say are close to accurate. People like my sister wouldn't show up in those numbers. Technically she is on disability and is perfectly legit.

Maybe the reason why you see so many come out who have stories of those they know is because for many it is not all that visible? For those of us who see it, it's pretty flippin frustrating. Then when we see something proposing to put the smack down on them, hell yeah we're enthusiastic! Like I said, you're not going to find her in the statistics. You're not going to see her roll up in an expensive car, hop out with her gold shining to go get her card - she spends everything she can get on getting wasted. How else would you ever notice her or have a clue the money she is costing us?

I don't know the numbers - and would be surprised if we could find them - of how many were moved over to social security like my sister.

To be honest, if you think your sister is scamming the system you should be reporting her, not using her as anecdotal evidence on message boards to paint a perception that everyone receiving food assistance or social security disability benefits is scamming the system. Not everyone is.

If what you say is true, then responsibility for one single instance of unreported fraud lies with you. Not with an imagined nationwide epidemic of food stamp funded drug abuse.

Gulliver's, I never said everyone getting assistance is scamming the system. I'm just saying those who believe there aren't many doing it maybe just don't know any different since there's not "official" info verifying just how many are.

As far as reporting my sister, who do you think helped her get on social security in the first place?? Her caseworker orchestrated everything for her and taught her how to "work it" so to speak. And yes actually I have tried to report ss fraud on a couple of occasions, not just her but also a doc who billed them for a whole load of tests that were never done on a patient. I got transferred around for a while and finally put into a voicemail to leave a message. I'll give you two guesses on whether or not I ever got a response. I've also tried reporting illegal aliens to ICE a few times. I'll give you two guesses what happened there too.

At this point, if my sister were to be investigated, or welfare reform were implemented it wouldn't touch her anyhow. After so many years of sitting around on her can getting wasted she has plenty of problems going on so the odds of getting her booted off at this point aren't that great. The only consolation is that the kids are finally hitting 18 now which is gonna greatly cut into her profits unless she can convince them all to stay living with her and hand over their money.

I would think that iso looking down your nose at me for telling her story, and presuming I've not done my "civic duty" you should perhaps be considering the possibility that the only reason you think the epidemic of system abuse is "imagined" is because you don't know any better.

I would think that iso looking down your nose at me for telling her story, and presuming I've not done my "civic duty" you should perhaps be considering the possibility that the only reason you think the epidemic of system abuse is "imagined" is because you don't know any better.

They've done studies. They have found fraud but it is in the low single digits. The definition of fraud can also be along the lines of whether income is not being reported. That would even include small amounts of income from say, bagging groceries. I'm just talking about food stamps here, because when you get into larger packages of assistance like welfare, I really do hope there is a case worker keeping tabs on the family.

If the fraud for food stamps is in the low single digits and they are going to be administering drug tests on a weekly or monthly basis, the cost of the drug testing is going to be eating into the actual benefits. It costs just about as much to test someone for drugs as to test a patient for kidney disease.

It comes down to pandering to a mentality that would rather spend money policing benefits than actually delivering them. It's kind of like that scene in the old Woody Allen movie "Bananas" where the crazed dictator of a banana republic proclaims that "Underwear will be changed every three hours and so we can tell you are changing it every three hours, it will now be worn on the outside of one's clothing."

A while back on another discussion about welfare fraud, I did some searching on the net for stats on welfare fraud. Everything I found said that there are no statistics that could be considered "reasonably accurate" and talked about how difficult and problematic it is to try to obtain them. After all, if the gov knew they were committing fraud, they'd be putting the stoppers to them (in a perfect world anyway). Never mind the gov workers were/maybe are? the ones showing people how to do it.

I'm wondering in those "studies" if they counted people like my sister? If you really think it's a rare occurrence go hang out at the welfare office in Cincy at the beginning of the month and people watch. The show you'll see I can promise willl show you where all of those "myths" come from.

I'm so glad trash TV has moved on to endless shows about prison life. At least now people are learning skills on TV to help them survive in post food-stamps world.

Not only do I have questions about cost vs. benefits of across the board drug testing, but what does it accomplish when you catch someone who has smoked pot and throw them out of the system?

Now you have an unemployed person without food stamps and hungry kids. You may or may not have found a junkie working the system. Odds are you found an unemployed person who took a toke or two on a joint. Yeah, their time could be better spent but have we solved more problems than we have created with this testing?

There's no substitute for getting to the actual bottom of the fraud and abuse problems. How about the scammers who aren't using drugs? Drug testing is a copout for actually having social workers follow up on cases. It would be far better to have a social worker visit someone's home than than to get them to take a drug test on a regular basis.

We don't need to be throwing people onto the street, we need to be figuring out how to get them working again, even if it is sweeping streets in a business improvement district. We have REALLY big economic problems ahead of us. With double digit unemployment and good jobs for average people possibly never coming back, we need to pull together in solidarity rather than figuring out who to throw off the deck next.

My friend's 11 yr old daughter told her once that they should go on welfare. She asked her why on earth she would say that. The response was "Because people on welfare have nicer stuff". Of course the kid doesn't realize those particular recipients also have a lot of "unclaimed income".

Of course the kid doesn't realize those particular recipients also have a lot of "unclaimed income".

And how is drug testing going to fix this problem?

Something has to be done to allow the states to continue to survive. Deficit spending is NOT the answer.

We could always cut our military budget in half on spend the money on things that build a better world instead of blowing it up and maiming people. We would still have the largest military in the world if we did that.

This is the main purpose of a campaign to drug test food stamp recipients, it cultivates the myth that our deficits are due to welfare queens and the notion that what all wee need to do to right the good ship America is shove around poor people a little harder. Poor people didn't cause the recent economic meltdown. The state ledgers have shifted into the red at the same time wealth has concentrated more heavily into the hands of the top one half percent. Drug testing for people on food stamps is a charade. It's political theater to provide cover for hypocritical politicians who are acting like tax cuts (mostly for the wealthy) are going to balance the budget through some miracle of warm yellow trickle down economics. They can point to something concrete to say they are addressing waste in government programs. They can point to and blame poor people and encourage the rest of us to do the same.

You DO understand that the MAJORITY of the "food stamp" monies come out of STATE budgets and NOT the federal budget right?

When you move a dollar bill from your right pocket to your left pocket, you still have the same number of dollars in your pockets, don't you?

Oklahoma isn't the only state with demagogue politicians. Oklahoma both pays federal taxes and receives money from the federal government. To the bottom line it's a complicated three card monty. As a nation we need to figure out who is actually screwing us over and what to do about it. In Oklahoma they've decided its drug users on food stamps. We'll see how far that conclusion carries us forward.

Oh give me a home where the buffalo roam....

Do y'all have any buffalo wandering around by chance?

Sorry...I'm in a goofy mood today :)

Not exactly roaming loose, but there are several herds here.

Well that will do it lol!

Here they are AT LEAST trying to do something about it and NOT sitting on a national stage and playing politics with the issue.

They're trying to do something, that's for sure. It's a bit of a stretch to say they aren't playing politics. I think playing politics is mostly what they are doing. They are grabbing headlines and diverting attention from the deeper problems.

Their time would probably be better spent demanding federal dollars for green jobs or whatever other stimulus dollars are on the radar screen. But at least oklahoma will have drug tests for food stamp recipients. I wonder if that will help us compete with the Chinese solar panel manufacturers?

Drug testing for food stamps is the product of small minds played to an audience of small minds. Sorry if it sounds like I am looking down my nose, but the truth hurts.

Ouch.

Now go take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

She loses her benefits. Then what?? What have we accomplished?

we have removed someone that is abusing the system. so since she has kids she should be able to scam the system? does that make sense?

And we feel better about ourselves, because we work for what we get. (sarcasm)

Have a great day. I've wasted enough time on this thread.

There is no pride is not being able to provide for your family. And there isn't any pride in having kids you can't take care of unless you're fighting like hell to change that. I've seen teen moms finish h.s., find a full-time job and go to college. Maybe in the beginning they had to get some assistance but in the end they made a decent life for themselves and their kids. That is something to be proud of.

There are plenty of hard-working people getting assistance right now who are not happy about it. I doubt they would say they're "proud" of their situation regardless of how they got there. They are the ones who will battle back and get off of assistance at some point.

It's really sad to think that anyone would slam anyone for being proud of working for what they have. What kind of ethic are we creating in this country?

Exactly. So subjecting people that are already humbled because they can't support their families to further humiliation is wrong. The majority of people asking for assistance do it as a last resort. Don't you think these people want to take care of themselves? Do you really think they are all just bums looking for a hand out? Why cause them further pain? So we can have the satisfaction of weeding out a handful of dishonest people, we are willing to kick the rest of the honest people. Sorry, I just don't agree. What's next--testing people on Social Security disability because a few of them lie? How about people collecting unemployment?

I don't have a problem with being proud of not needing assistance. But with a little bad luck, any of us could be there. I don't consider myself as any more deserving of respect or dignity that any one else is.

I guess that you are one of those who supports the idea that everyone who shows up at a sporting event "deserves...

No, but every human being deserves their dignity. I guess we just don't look at things the same.

i'm amazed that your daughter could talk to the other people in the waiting room. in my area they all speak spanish and need translators. ugh.

i took spanish for 13 years in school, can i speak spanish, no. can i read spanish, si.

trm, I'm not remotely humiliated when I have to take a drug test to get a job. I've been through that quite a few times. Ironic isn't it that I'm not allowed to have any to be able to make the money to pay for theirs?

I do realize how easy it would be to end up in line trying to get help. If you ever had a chance to talk to some homeless people, you wouldn't believe some of the folks you'd find. Anyone who believes it couldn't possibly happen to them are lying to themselves. I have no issue with that. That's what it's there for. Assuming you work for a living, yes I would afford more dignity and respect to someone like you than I would a life-long career dead beat like my sister.

Amazed...uh oh lol...guess I can't say to anyone lo que pueden besar without getting busted hahahaha!

rotflmao!

Hey - don't jump all over me!! LOL!!

I really don't care one way or the other. . . call me apathetic but I don't. The reason I don't care is because no matter how many people they cull from the welfare rolls, the gov't is NOT going to reduce my taxes; they're just going to use that money (if any is saved, which I doubt) for some other foolishness and everyone will STILL be crying about where their tax money is going.

My point is still the same. I think it will be money wasted as the gov't is going to go the cheapest route, which will make these tests a joke.

Just an FYI for you something like 8 out of 10 people who apply for SSDI

My husband collected disability for about 4 years before he passed away, so I know about that. BTW, he was approved the first time without a involving a lawyer. Believe me, he fought tooth and nail to keep working, and it severely hurt his pride that he could no longer work to support his family. Until he was confined to a wheel chair, I'm sure a lot of people wondered why he wasn't working. I think there are a lot of misperceptions out there.

Assuming you work for a living

I have worked for over thirty years. I asked for help once--only because Social Security required me to do so. We were turned down anyway. And I am glad we were because I didn't want people looking at me like I was some kind of sponge soaking up there tax dollars.

My dad had to fight tooth and nail to get his. It took a while. When he first applied, the number of angioplasties he'd had was already in the teens. They turned him down. He lawyered up, and eventually it came through. I cried with relief the day it came through. I'd been supporting my parents and myself for a couple of years at that point while trying to go to school full-time. It still pisses me off that my sister's caseworker got hers pushed through within a month when there was no reason why she couldn't work.

And I am glad we were because I didn't want people looking at me like I was some kind of sponge soaking up there tax dollars.

A while ago, a woman told her story of getting stamps for her family this past year and she did a wonderful job of illustrating the fact that right now there are probably many more people on assistance than ever who are using it for what it was intended for. If you had to get help for a while, I would be glad our money is going to someone like you iso someone like my sister. Her story though made me really stop and think about how easily we can jump to the wrong conclusion about perfect strangers. I know I get so fed up with watching my sister that sometimes it's hard not to. But obviously as a society we all need to stop and consider things more carefully. I'll be honest...I don't mind a kick at people like my sister, but in the process I don't want to unintentionally kick someone while they really are down. This is a topic that gets people fired up, but really what is the solution?

i have to think that the savings from the number of people that would not be eligible due to positive test results would surpass the cost.

I am looking forward to seeing the results of this endeavor.

Woot Woot....Oklahoma here we come!!! ;)

not true. go to your local church and you will see them handing out food to the needy and helping with bills. p bo is so into volunteering and helping your fellow man, take a page from him and let the churches and families help instead of the government.

so if you had two hamburgers and two children and you neighbor who didn't work had kids with no food, would you take your kids food away to give to these other children? then why take money out of my pocket that i use to support my family and give it to someone else and cause my family to be in the same predicament. it doesn't make sense. i give money and time to the local food bank and my church. that should be all i am required to give. my choice not the govts.!

and these same so called christian cry about a unborn child but let the child get here then they cry about aid to help them with food, schooling and health care and then cry about thier taxs which about 50% dont even pay taxes

What a load....how many orphanages do you know of that don't have "Saint" in front of the name? Do you have even a remote clue about the amount of $$ and time the "so called Christians" put in on social services and helping the poor and needy? One clue is the fact that it is a large enough amount that not even the gov is dumb enough to try to take away any of those funds and take on the burden themselves.

What have you done lately above and beyond paying taxes? Sorry but that argument really irks me as one of the more ignorant and hypocritical slams on Christians frequently used.

me too! i am so sick of hearing christians being slammed for not caring. get real. it would be interesting to get a glimpse of life without churches helping. it might be a real eye opener. at the rate of govt. growth i am sure that many people will to cut back on church donations and charities. then what is going to happen?

it would be interesting to get a glimpse of life without churches helping.

I can't imagine it would be possible right now with our deficit and the states struggling to cover expenses.

gasp! are you allowed to call him that even though that is what he calls himself!

i remembered that. lol.

This from the same ?people? who want to stop food stamp recpientds from buying chips and cookies

and those churces you speak so highly of are nothing but dumping grounds for old spoiled outdate food for tax right-off purposes for companies

put your money were your mouth is go live off of the churces in your world for two months you wouldnt make it and I dont mean soup lines live off the food the churches give you to take home I dare you

And If we were dealing with real humans they would at least send the person to a rehab or councling for help with their drug problem but to take food from a child and mother

is like a ,run with the pack of wild animals mentality

once again petty, mean spirited, hateful ?people?

Head Negro, I've worked at several different soup kitchens. One had really good fried chicken, one sometimes had tasty stuff but sometimes had passing grade stuff. The other had decent, if not flavorful stuff.
And Yeah I've had some of the stuff churches give you to take home. Once per month my sister hits every church within a 20 mile radius and I've eaten at her house on rare occasion. Only rare because I try to avoid her as much as possible - not because of the food.

So you wanna try again on putting your money where your mouth is? You're preaching to the wrong choir lol. And no I don't care if they buy chips and cookies - I do care if there's no fruits or veggies only to the extent that I worry about the kids getting good nutrition. I do strongly object to them buying crack iso food for their kids even if it's just cookies. They'd be doing better than my sister.

Who is to stay they wouldn't require rehab and give them a chance to clean up before giving them the boot? That would be the more productive approach wouldn't it? But to pay out $$ for years on end to foot the bill for their crack habit? No.

What exactly is petty, mean-spirited, and hateful about being pissed that she smokes up our tax dollars while her 5yr old son goes door-to-door in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods looking for odd jobs so he can buy bologna and bread to feed his siblings for the day?

and those churces you speak so highly of are nothing but dumping grounds for old spoiled outdate food for tax right-off purposes for companies

i used to run the food bank at our church and we bought the food at a grocery store and did receive a small discount. maybe since you have no idea what you are talking about you might want to do some research before you make assinine comments about people that are just trying to help others. you could probably use a good sermon or two. lol.

maybe since you have no idea what you are talking about you might want to do some research before you make assinine comments about people that are just trying to help others.

It's always easy to have an opinion from the side lines.

i would like to request that head negroe change his name. it is tacky for me to use that word, so i would think that it would be the same for him.

you must be a god

Thanks lol but no, it's really not rocket science. And that "worst-case scenario" is my sister's life for the past 24 years. Yeah, I guess you could say I do have a lot of details about it. And since her kids are now starting to carry on the family tradition I can honestly say I've seen a lot. Not to mention what I've seen of their friends over the years.

And if a woman can afford weed or meth, why does she need assistance? And in the case of those lives I've observed yeah, feeding the kids usually doesn't take priority over feeding the habit. I've met some folks who smoke weed that do a great job of providing for their kids. But then again they were working adults paying for their kids and for their habit out of their own paychecks.

and once again I say the phonys cry for the unborn but when they get here they cry it cost too much of my tax dollars

Another largely uninformed and grossly hypocritical statement about the religious. If they weren't footing so much of the bill for social services you'd be seeing a lot less of your tax dollars to make up for it. It's much easier and cheaper to preach from the sidelines though isn't it?

You do have a valid point re alcoholics and accurate testing. It's just as bad to sit around and drink up the money (for the serious alcoholics). And accurate testing has to be addressed before they could even make an intelligent attempt at implementing this.

Exactly how are tax rebates "gov welfare"?

lets say you paid 2000 in taxes but get back 4000 in rebates IE tax credits and dependents etc.. the working poor usually get more in rebates then what they pay in taxes or get most of their tax money back break even ....

The tax rebate isn't welfare. A lot of us get money back. I wouldn't say everyone who gets a rebate is on welfare. The fact that the poor get a larger portion back compared to what they pay in...I would think that's only fair. Regardless of rebate if a person can afford a drug habit, they don't need assistance.

There are those who don't get assistance who get their drugs and leave the kids to fend for themselves. That sucks and I wish we could do something about it, but at least in my area, children's services is completely useless. For those relying completely on tax-payer funds at least we have some grounds to step in. Letting them just continue on with their lifestyle and letting their kids suffer while they abuse the system isn't a terribly good answer imo.

I think I answered that in post #11 first sentence

1) a really bad idea (now it anyone else's turn)

2) a feel good experience for people who are ugly on the inside

Hello...the money isn't going for their nutrition anyhow. That's kindof the point.

3) formed on the basis of a convenient thought

4) Arbitrary and pointless.

5) a boon to testing laboratories